livinginheadcanon said: “we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. I do not think it is ‘extremism’ to want to be able to discuss female characters without being talked over, which has always been my point. Create your own space. Don’t take ours.”


***
Tumblr is everyone’s space tho, so if you’re gonna make a post that says “femshep is more important than maleshep” and then tag it “MASS EFFECT” be prepared for people to offer disagreements with subsequent explanation.  Which is really all I’ve done, and with that I am done since I’m sure everyone is sick of me by now.

livingheadcanon:
“Where, exactly, did I say that? I said ‘a post about gay protagonists’, not ‘a post saying male shepard is better’.

I do not know how many times I can repeat that it isn’t about pointing out that she was being exclusionary. It’s not about reminding her that gay people exist. It’s about making a post about women into a post about men. 

That is all I intended to point out with my original comment - that maybe she, and me, and probably others too, were irritated by your reply because you came into a post about women, and turned it into a post about you, and male characters, where a simple “femshep isn’t more or less important than Sheploo because Sheploo also represents LBGT characters” explanation would have sufficed.”


****

Yes that would have sufficed but a person shouldn’t be attacked for offering up their own personal experience as to why Sheploo is just as important.

This whole mindset of OMG we were talking about women, how dare you bring up anything else in our discussion is feminism pushed to the point of extremism.  Especially when I am trying to make a point about how exclusionary that particular feminist was being with her statement.

And I apologize, you indeed didn’t say that, I meant to write “male shepard as more influential,” you just didn’t see the edit I made in time.

livingheadcanon:

“As I said - she could have worded it better and that needed pointing out. 

My point is that you could have told her that she was being exclusionary without following it up with a long post about male protagonists. Of course Sheploo is more important to you, since you identify more with him. You could have made your point and made your OWN post about Sheploo. 

That’s what I mean when I say you derailed her post - you took a post about female characters, and essentially said, “actually, let me just go on about why this male character is more important”. That you said ‘to me’ doesn’t change the fact that you talked over women - you can spin it any way you want, taking a post about women and making it about men is the very definition of derailment. 

Think of it another way - if you had made a post about gay protagonists, and some woman had reblogged it and talked about nothing but female characters and how great they are…. wouldn’t that irritate you?

To remove both the original girl’s post and the femshep/sheploo issue entirely: the reason that this is so annoying, and why I bothered saying anything in the first place, is that this happens to us all the time. You meant well, and I realise that.

But it is nigh on impossible to have a conversation about female characters without a man telling you why some male character is better… and you can’t even talk about why you prefer the female version of Shepard/the Warden/Hawke without someone else telling you that you’re wrong to even PLAY her because the male version is default and therefore canon.”

******

I don’t find your analogy to be appropriate because the difference is I would ….never ….ever…. under any circumstance say that maleshep is more influential than femshep, even if I was making a post about why I preferred him personally.  It’s just an incredibly selfish comment to make as that would be throwing the feminist viewpoint completely to the curb.

Which is exactly what she did to me as a gaymer when she made her statement.  And it’s not as though I believe she did it on purpose, which is why I didn’t actually attack her or spew vitriol, all I did was point out that she was being exclusionary and I provided my reasoning for why I felt that way.

Making my own post wouldn’t have made sense because what I’m trying to express is why her statement was inappropriate. The discussion about femshep being influential to gaming isn’t over just because I reminded her that gay people exist too.

livingheadcanon:
“which it was - I don’t agree with the ‘more important’ point, and yes, it needed saying. But you could have pointed out that she was being exclusionary without derailing her post, turning it into a discussion about men instead. Which you did. I quote: Sheploo is the best ever!!!

I agree with nearly everything you said, btw - these are discussions we need to have and gay characters are enormously underrepresented too. But you didn’t have to do it in a post about Femshep. This is why I personally have an issue with your reply to her.

‘Sheploo is the best’ is no better than saying ‘Femshep is the best’. They are both great characters with their own merits and neither should be lauded as better or more important than the other.”

But you left out the part where I said “To me” Sheploo is the best ever,

which was the point I was trying to drive home, that to HER femshep is the best ever but not everyone feels that way so it’s irresponsible to claim otherwise.

And I don’t mind that you’re disagreeing with me, I think civil discussion is perfectly fine. 

Clarissant
I hear you Andrew. I think some FemShep fans are just guilty of being overzealous in their defense of her because they don’t realize they are doing so for many of the same reasons you’re defending ManShep.



That’s the point I’m trying to make, it’s like the time we were at PAX East during the merchandise giveaway and a Male N7 hoody came up as one of the items, you might not remember but one of the femshep fans actually booed from the crowd, and while it’s not horribly offensive it’s just plain annoying and unnecessary because to some of us maleshep represents the exact same strides towards acceptance that femshep fans push for.

So seeing someone claim that “She’s so much more important” rubs me the wrong way.

All I was saying was “Hey ladies, maybe take into account that not everyone views Shepard as a generic hetero lead.”  And now I’m being accused of trying to derail the importance of feminism. 

livingheadcanon:
But the fact remains that you derailed a post about women, by women, by making it about men. By all means, make your point, shout it from the rooftops, but did you really have to do it by talking over women?

That’s a bit much, I obviously didn’t intend to detract from the importance of what she was saying about women’s rights.  I even furthered that stance in my own post.

I was pointing out that I had a strong disagreement with the way she worded her statement as it seemed exclusionary.

livingheadcanon:
“I think the issue people may have is they were talking about Femshep, and how much femshep means in the world of gaming…. and you came in and started talking over them about men. Gay characters in games is a good thing! But not the same issue”




The fact that they are different issues is exactly why I’m pointing it out.
You cannot make the claim that femshep is “so much more important  than maleshep to the gaming world,” because it only takes into account the feminist viewpoint, and there are other viewpoints to consider. 

Obviously a discussion of females in gaming doesn’t also need to include lgbt rights but don’t go and say femshep is more important than maleshep because that’s completely subjective.